The following is a lightly edited transcript from a lunchtime interview at RTS Orlando with Dr. Ligon Duncan, Chancellor/CEO and John E. Richards Professor of Systematic and Historical Theology, as well as Phillip Holmes, Vice President for Institutional Communications. The conversation is on the subject of the influence of social media on Christian ministry.
Moderator: Greetings, everyone. Glad you’re having a good time of fellowship and grateful for our Preview Day guests here. We hope you’re getting a sense of how much we enjoy one another here on campus. We want to take a little bit of time because of our special guests: our fearless leader, Ligon Duncan, and Phillip Holmes. But because we’ve eaten already, we should thank the Lord and ask his blessing on our time. So would you pray with me?
Lord, we thank you for every good gift which comes from above, you being the good and perfect giver of all perfect things. And so thank you for feeding us body and soul on all the benefits attained for us by the work of your dear Son. And may the Spirit which he sent to dwell in us indwell us in this moment and empower us for faithful living this day. And we pray especially for our Preview Day students, Lord, to lead and guide them as they seek to serve you with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength and to love their neighbor as theirself. And we pray this in your Son’s name, Amen.
So welcome. We have a special guest with us, as we said. You’ve met Lig Duncan at chapel, of course, and probably known him through other means. My first visual memory of Lig Duncan is walking across the seminary campus with a high school student from his youth group to play tennis. Lig’s ministry has extended to all ages and seminary and First Pres Jackson and recently Lig wrote a blog called “A 10 Point Social Media Strategy,” and so we thought it’d be a good occasion to talk about social media strategy. With Lig is his right hand man in communications. Phillip Holmes is the vice president of institutional communication. He’s a Belhaven grad, a native of Pickens, Mississippi, spent a few cold months a year that seemed like 10 years in Minneapolis, Minnesota, with Desiring God Ministries, where he was a writer for Dr. Piper’s ministry up there. He has worked in the financial services sector as a communication strategist, if I have that right, and now is back in Jackson. His family is here today. We welcome you. And it’s Langston in the bucket somewhere down there, and I believe it’s Wynn that’s in your arms with Jasmine. We welcome you and we’re glad you’re here.
And so what we’re going to do is give them as much time as possible to talk about this important subject of social media and ministry, but branching beyond that to the broader subject of communication. And then we’re going to save a few minutes for any questions, as long as there are questions, in about 15 or 20 minutes. So if you have things along the way you think you might want to ask, hold them till that time. We’ll give you an opportunity. Can I start with Phillip?
Phillip, you’re a communications expert, an industry person. How do you define success when it comes to, let’s say, social media and communication in general, from a ministry point of view, what is success in communication?
Phillip Holmes: I think for me, there’s a few things that come to mind. First, I want to be helpful. That’s my primary goal. I think the way that you’re helpful is, number one, making sure that you’re knowledgeable about the subjects that you’re engaging. This is the hot take culture, and people are quick to pick up a keyboard and just start blabbing information out there. And it’s interesting because, before, 20 years ago, in order to have a platform, there was a lot more accountability involved. You have to know somebody who knew somebody who’s going to actually let you write for a newspaper or write for a magazine. You had to show some type of credentials that you’ve actually studied a particular topic before somebody gave you a book deal. But nowadays, anybody can write a book, literally anybody. Anybody can publish their thoughts for the world to see, and there’s not a whole lot of accountability from an academic standpoint to say whether or not this person is a trustworthy source.
So that’s one, number two: the other way that I try to be helpful is by being clear, and I really value clarity. If you want to ask me what marketing is about, what communications is about, it’s all about communicating as clearly as possible what it is that you’re trying to get across. Because again, if you are talking about a particular topic and you’re not clear and all you’re doing is stirring confusion, you’re not helping anybody. You can’t be helpful. And there’s a lot of stuff, there’s a lot of opinions that are out there, and what people need more than anything is clarity. They need to understand what is it that you’re talking about and how it’s going to apply to their lives. If you are talking about a particular topic and you’re not clear and all you’re doing is stirring confusion, you’re not helping anybody.
So those are my two things that I aim to be. I want to be knowledgeable with what I’m talking about that. I don’t want to be ignorant, I don’t want to spread ignorance. And even if I’m knowledgeable, I also want to be clear as well so that people can actually hear what I’m saying and use it and apply it in a way that would actually encourage and help them.
Moderator: So that phrase you use, the hot take, that sounds like there’s a temptation out there that keeps us from the clarity and the being knowledgeable and so forth. How does that play into social media use by people in ministry?
Phillip Holmes: Yeah, I think that it means that you don’t have to chime in on everything. You know, pastors feel like it’s their job to address every single topic that’s out there. They’re oftentimes looked at as the individual who’s supposed to be the expert. So the temptation, when it comes to social media, is that because somebody asks you a question, that means that you have to give your opinion on it. And I think that for the pastor it is very important for them to be slow to speak on issues that they have not taken time out to study. And, you know, seminary doesn’t prepare you for—we provide theological education. But there are all types of socio-economic issues that we don’t have time to fit in the curriculum of the seminary. And I think that’s OK.
But if a pastor is going to speak on those things, I think it’s very important that we take time to make sure we’re knowledgeable
Moderator: Like politics, economics, education, pretty much everything except pastoring.
Phillip Holmes: I mean we have great professors like Bruce Lowe who has a PhD in . . .
Moderator: Rhetorical criticism in the book of Acts.
Phillip Holmes: Yeah. I mean, the guy is brilliant. So he would be qualified . . .
Moderator: Oh, and chemistry. That’s his other PhD.
Phillip Holmes: Yeah. So he could speak on both of those topics, but guys like that are rare. And I’m not saying that you have to have a PhD to speak on a topic, but you get my point. You need to be knowledgeable about what you’re talking about.
Moderator: Lig, your blog must have come to you for particular reasons or particular occasions. I’m sure from the experience of others, not your own, because you generally maintain the kind of things you commend. What was the essence of why you felt your blog was timely and then something of the substance of it?
Ligon Duncan: Well, it really was generated out of a tweet thread, and some things that Phillip and I’ve been talking about a long time, just as we’ve watched Twitter morph over the last 10 years. Ten years ago, Twitter was, “I’m going to Arby’s for a roast beef sandwich.” Now it’s, “Somebody said something wrong. Rage!” It’s been an amazing transformation to see that happen. And the kind of ballistics that we are seeing in the political environment in our day and time, especially in the last four years or so, I now see playing out in the ecclesiastical wing of social media. And a lot of unclarity and a lot of stuff that’s not contributing to clarity and a lot of stuff that is frankly not helpful. It’s not meant to help your neighbor; it’s meant to shut your neighbor up. It’s meant to marginalize your neighbor. It’s meant to demean your neighbor. And out of that I just thought, I’ll give a little few pieces of pastoral advice. Ten years ago, Twitter was, “I’m going to Arby’s for a roast beef sandwich.” Now it’s, “Somebody said something wrong. Rage!”
And then after that went out, Justin Taylor, who is an editor with Crossway, but he was one of the early adopters of social media in our theological neck of the woods, RTS Orlando grad. And Justin contacted me, he said, “Can I put this in the form of a blog?” I said, “Fine.” And so he actually posted it on his Between Two Worlds site. And then Phillip and Paul Schwartz, who works with us also with the ministry and leadership magazine, suggested, you know what, this might not be a bad thing to put in the ministry and leadership magazine just as a way of generating some self-reflection on the part of our constituency in how they use social media. So a lot of it was just watching social media be used really poorly and badly by people who ought to know better. And then offering, again along the lines of what Phillip just said, some suggestions where we could be more helpful and clear in what we do.
Moderator: And it seems like when Twitter doubled the amount of characters that helped a lot . . . .
Ligon Duncan: I’m still way over the edge. I want the edit button. If they really want to be helpful, give me an edit button.
Moderator: So some of the things Dr. Duncan said is relentlessly encourage, edify, and inform. Ignore trolls, mockers, and slanderers. Starve dissensionists and narcissists. Point people to sound people and resources. And that’s why I appreciate so much that last year you were doing F. B. Meyer prayers. This year you’ve been doing prayers from the Scottish Psalter. Has that produced any feedback? We need to pray a whole lot more than we need to rage about something.
Ligon Duncan: Oh, yeah. And I’ve gotten great feedback on that, but as Phillip knows, one of the traps of social media is if you want to get hits, if you want to get likes, if you want to go viral? Say something inflammatory. That that’s how you attract a lot of attention. And frankly, prayer is not inflammatory, but it is a means of grace. I know I’m not going to get as many hits by doing prayer on social media. But you know what? We need to pray a whole lot more than we need to rage about something. In fact, both Christian Focus and Banner of Truth have said to me, we saw very significant upticks on the purchase of the F. B. Meyer’s Daily Prayers and David Calhoun’s edition of Prayers on the Psalms once you started using these in social media. At that point, I said that’s exactly what I wanted to do. I wanted to get people to things that would help them in their relationship with God, help them to pray with and for one another, point them to healthy stuff on social media.
And the way Phillip very wisely suggested that we set it up so that it comes out in the early part of the day so people can actually use it as part of morning devotions. And that’s exactly how I use it. When it pops up—we load it ahead of time—and when it when it pops up on my feed, I make sure to just pray it again. I’ve read through it, I’ve outlined it. I’ve crayoned it, you know, with my little colors, but then I’ll pray it again. And it gives me something that I can think about the whole day long. So yeah, I’ve had really good positive, back-channel kind of feedback to those sorts of things.
But the temptation of social media is the more inflammatory you are, the more attention that you get. And so if you go down that rabbit hole, you generate confusion, you generate dissension. And I think pastors and Christians need to think really carefully before they follow that sort of track. The temptation of social media is the more inflammatory you are, the more attention that you get.
Moderator: Phillip, speak to this: the whole “hit,” “like,” both in terms of chasing the likes and isn’t there even a physiology involved? If you’ve gotten into that with cognitive science, it’s like, compared to slot machines. I mean, can you address the hit/like pursued on both sides, like the temptation to play that game, but also even the impact it can have on us, a negative impact.
Phillip Holmes: Yeah. I can’t speak to the psychological effects, but I can speak to what I’ve experienced over the years in my own heart. We’re all looking for external affirmation and validation. And to some extent, the amount of followers, the amount of retweets we get, the amount of likes, that does something. I know it has something to do with endorphins, but I think it also is a place that we go to because we want significance. It’s a way that we even measure our worth, whether or not what I have to say or what I have to offer the world is actually valid.
It’s also a means of career advances, job opportunities, building your platform. This is the age of platform. I have, I guess, mixed feelings about platforms. I’m not against them because I actually do think that platforms can be used to the glory of God. You have to be very careful because the heart is deceitful and it’ll tell you that you’re using it for one thing, and then the next thing you know, you’re using it to build your own kingdom on earth. But I actually think that the way that you really measure whether or not you’re building a platform or whether or not you’re doing these things for your own glory or for God’s glory is by what you’re doing on those platforms. Are you offering value? Are you other-focused? Are you trying to help other people? Are you self-serving by tweeting or facebooking or instagramming the thing that’s going to get you the most likes or that’s going to make people think well of you.
So I think that as we do that, as we’re watching retweets and as we’re watching our follower count: I’ll be honest with you, I struggle with this as well. I always have to ask myself, “Why am I doing this?” Which is why probably I’m only active on Twitter at this point. I do a little facebooking and I’m a terrible photographer, so I don’t really do Instagram.
But, you know, as I’m thinking through all this, the reason why I’ve been almost quiet, I pop up every once in a while, is because I’m always, number one, asking myself, “Why do you want to say that? Do you really just want retweets or are you really trying to be helpful?” It goes back to being helpful, adding value, serving people through the platform as opposed to using it to prop yourself up.
Moderator: That gets to a material question I’d like to hear you both speak to. There’s a Brad Paisley song that says, “I work down at the Pizza Hut, and I drive an old Hyundai. I still live with my mom and dad. I’m 5’3’’ and overweight.” The next verse is, “Online I live in Malibu. I posed for Calvin Klein. I’ve been in GQ. I’m single and I’m rich. And I got a six pack that’ll blow your mind.” The name of the song was called “Online.”
How has social media changed the conception of the self from character and actions to self-description? I’d like to hear both of you say something about that.
Ligon Duncan: I think for the very reason that Phillip just said that we are looking for validation, we’re looking for pats on the back, we’re looking for affirmation, that the social media provides a tremendous temptation for us to present a version of ourselves that will get that. And so I think one of the first things that Christians ought to do, is they ought to strive to be the same on social media as they are in life. So that you don’t take on a persona that is not who you are and that you don’t seek a voice that is beyond your own level of responsibility and accountability. The people that I try to listen to on social media and care about what they say are people who have actual responsibility, actual accountability, actual ministry. They have been helping the people of God as opposed to people who want to be listened to, who have not demonstrated in life a reason why they should be listened to. And very often if you look at the people that generate the most unhelpful kind of back and forth and banter and commentary in the sphere of social media, it is people with the least responsibility and accountability in their own personal life and ministry.
And so I really think it’s important for us to keep those two things together just as a part of us not being hypocrites, one way on the outside and another way on the inside. You don’t want to be one way on social media and then another way in terms of your personal life and interaction with people. And I think the anonymity of social media, and again, very often the most bombastic people hide behind, you don’t know who they are. They have their own avatar and they have some code name that they go by, and you have no idea who they are. That allows for all kinds of unhelpful, inflammatory things to be done. So wherever I am on social media, my name is on it. I’m owning that. So if I do something that needs to be rebuked, they know where my email address is. They know where I work. They know who I work for. And I don’t think I should be able to get by with saying something on social media that I couldn’t say in person. And very often I’ve had people say the most wildly inflammatory things on social media. And then when I’m with them, it is kind of like Paul’s thing to Corinth, you know, “I know you say I’m really bold when I’m away and not when I’m with you, but I’m going to show you it’s the other way around.” So that is a factor when we think about social media that I think everybody needs to take account of and make sure that we’re consistent in how we express ourselves there.
Moderator: Phillip, you speak to that as well. I mean, you started even talking about your own experiences, but if you can add your thoughts and then connect the dots to what we call “virtue signaling,” is social media an action or not? And can it be an action for, say, just causes or good causes versus just mere virtue signaling? I mean, how do you sort all that out?
Phillip Holmes: Authenticity is extremely important. That’s one of the reasons why, I mean, I’m not saying this because he signs my paychecks, but I always tell [Ligon Duncan], especially after you wrote that Ten Point Social Media Strategy, that this is why I enjoy working for him, because I don’t have to do PR with my boss. I don’t have to do a whole lot of that. Another person that I thought was really consistent and really good at that was Dr. Piper. The person, the very serious Scripture-quoting person that you see on social media, he’s the exact same way in person. That’s just how he lives his life.
The other thing I’ll mention too, though, is that we’ve also had this idea of virtual reality, right? That song kind of made me think about this, where you escape into this new world and you’re whoever you want to be. And social media is probably not what people had in mind when we think about virtual reality, you know, you think about being hooked up to a machine and being able to see this whole new world. But the reality is that social media is probably as close as we’ve gotten to actual virtual reality that the masses have access to, because you can get lost in a timeline. You can reinvent yourself. You can try to be whoever you want to be. And you can make people think that you’re one way and then again, when they meet you in person, you’re not at all what they expected. And I see this every single time when I meet people in person, it’s either one of the two things like “Your social media account doesn’t do you justice, let me help you out,” or “Your social media, yeah, not nearly as impressive in person.” You don’t want to be one way on social media and then another way in terms of your personal life and interaction with people.
Moderator: It almost sounds like a caricature of a soap opera watcher whose world becomes that world. It’s almost like it becomes more pervasive, this narrative becomes more than the narrative you really live in.
Phillip Holmes: Yep. I completely agree. My wife and I, we’re both very active on social media. She has way more followers than I do. And we were talking about the latest season in life that we’re kind of still in but we’re almost on the tail end, at least in my mind, but she may have a different perspective. But the last three months have been really difficult, mostly because of transition and new baby, he’s 10 weeks, 11 weeks old. And some other things that we have going on, we’re looking to buy a house. And all these are kind of good things, but also things that are causing a lot of stress. But the optics of it on the outside is, you know, career-wise, things are going well. My wife is getting ready to write a book. We just had a new baby. And we’re sleep deprived and anxious and just worried and just going through. And on the outside, people probably think our lives are awesome right now. And we feel like it’s just another day, not in hell, but like it’s just another day on earth as we still live very ordinary lives.
But transitioning to what you were talking about, virtue signaling. That’s kind of my pet peeve when it comes to social media. I don’t think there’s anything that makes me as mad because what happens is something takes place, and then there’s always the outrage that just comes along with it.
Case in point would be the R. Kelly scandal. We knew about what R. Kelly was doing since the ‘90s or allegedly doing. I don’t think that they’ve convinced me any more than I was already convinced in the ‘90s that he was messing with underage girls. But we just kind of all ignored it. And we would still be bumping, you know, Pied Piper of R&B, right now if this stuff hadn’t come out even more. Even people who knew what was going on. But now all of a sudden, it’s out. Now there’s virtue signaling. I can be outraged, and I can show people that I’m better than him. And that’s really what it’s all trying to communicate. It’s all self-serving. It’s like you guys are ridiculous. You guys are the worst. And when you start seeing people use language like that to attack people on social media, not to even gently correct them, but to bury them, it’s just virtue signaling. I want you to know that I’m better than that person. And you guys should pay attention to me and listen to me, because I’m not that person. I don’t do bad stuff or I don’t do those types of things like that person.
Moderator: We could keep this going for a long time. But I want to see is there any question that has been raised by the points we’ve touched on or or anything else that might be on your mind again, please. Questions. No virtual signaling. If not I think you’ve really made me feel more confident about stepping out there. I think I’m going to get a MySpace page again. Cutting edge. We’ve always been cutting edge. We want to thank Phillip and Dr. Duncan. Please give them a hand and I’m sure they’ll be hanging around for a little bit.
